Winters Boxing

By James Slater - Living legend Angelo Dundee, amazingly now 89-years-old, is one of the finestboxing brains in the sport’s history. Having forgotten more than any of us will ever know about the sport, Angelo is naturally a sensational interview.

Today, from his home, the Hall of Fame trainer and corner-man very kindly granted me such an interview.

Here is what he had to say:

James Slater: It’s a real honour to be able to speak with you, Angelo. There can’t be a single person out there who knows more about boxing than you!

Angelo Dundee: Oh, thank you. That’s very kind.

J.S: First of all, the legendary 5th Street Gym. It’s re-opening some 60-years after it first opened, which is a historic thing. Are you excited about this?

A.D: I’m very excited. It belongs there, and the gym should’ve never disappeared. The thing is, the owner of the building wanted $2 million, and I wasn’t about to go out and buy a gun to get the two million (laughs). It has been difficult, but everything is good now. The thing is, the gym was such a happy place. People liked to come; it was like a tourist attraction. And of course we had great fighters training there all the time.

J.S: And movie stars used to visit the gym?

A.D: Actually, that’s an interesting thing. Boxing and boxers draws star quality. I had the pleasure of training Will Smith for the Ali movie, and I also worked with the greatest guy alive, Russell Crowe, for the movie Cinderella Man. And I found out, these guys [actors] work just as hard as fighters do. They’re special individuals and I respect them a lot more now that I’ve found that out.

J.S: You obviously still love boxing, still have a huge passion for it. But what kind of shape would you say boxing is in today – compared to the golden era, or eras?

A.D: You’ve got to go with the times. I get a kick out of being close to the English scene. England is a very special place, and I’m not just saying that because I’m talking to you. I was there during the war, and lots of my fighters were over there. Willie Pastrano made a big impact over there. So, you never know where the next big star is coming from.

J.S: Could the next great champion originate from the new 5th Street Gym?

A.D: Oh, it’ll draw fighters. Fighters will go there when there’s activity.

J.S: And after all you’ve achieved in your great, Hall of Fame career, are you still looking to find another world champion, or maybe a couple more?

A.D: Oh yes. If a fighter, a kid, comes to see me, and if I see potential….. I’m still working. Right now I’m getting a kick out of working with a girl fighter. Her name is Christine Swanson, and she impresses me because she has the reflexes, the control. She’s a lightweight, she’s also a fire fighter and a University graduate – she’s a special person. She’s had two pro fights, and 30 amateur fights.

J.S: One to look out for. Were you surprised, Angelo, when female boxing became as big as it did?

A.D: I’m not surprised if they’re talented. They [female boxers] always had quality, but not quantity. If they want to do it, why not?

J.S: No interview with you would be complete without a few questions about The Greatest, Muhammad Ali…..

A.D: He was here at my house three weeks ago. His son is a baseball catcher for the university of Louisville, and Lonnie [Ali] called me. Muhammad’s son was playing just near my house, so we got together. Muhammad is my friend.

J.S: So many people continue to talk and debate about Ali fights. On the web site forums, the fans still argue about certain things. For one example, to this day, some people still say you loosened the ropes before that epic fight in Zaire, with George Foreman. I know you’ve been asked about that a million times, but can you tell me – did you loosen the ropes or not?

A.D: Isn’t it wonderful that people are still curious? I love that, because it means we’re still here. No, what happened was, I went to Kinshasa – we were 45-minutes away in Nsele, staying in a villa – and I went to the arena that day at 4P.M, and I tried to tighten the ropes, Bobby Goodman and I. They were 24-foot ropes for a 20-foot ring. It wasn’t easy, but we tightened them, not figuring on the heat in Zaire. The fight wasn’t until 4A.M the next morning, and the heat loosened the ropes again. I never wanted Muhammad to lie on the ropes; as a matter of fact, I whacked him on his butt whenever he lay on the ropes near the corner. That ring was six-foot off the ground, and I was worried Foreman would hit him in the chest and knock him out of the ring. If that had happened, the fight would’ve been over.

J.S: Of all Ali’s great wins, was that one of his absolute best?

A.D: Oh, God yes. But the best of all was the win over Sonny Liston. He was the baddest man on the planet, and no-one gave my kid a chance going in. That one was special.

J.S: Fans often say one of the great rematches never to happen was Ali-Foreman II. What would’ve happened had they met in, say, 1976 or ’77?

A.D: Well, certain people beat certain people. This happens all the time in boxing, you’ve seen it. Actually, the old George Foreman would’ve given Ali a tougher fight. But the young George, with his wild swings, my guy would’ve beaten him all night.

J.S: You say the old Foreman would’ve done better against Ali. Is that because George was more relaxed and patient at that age?

A.D: Yeah. He was relaxed, steady and he would grind you down – just like he did to Michael Moorer, when he won the title back.

J.S: But Ali would still have beaten the old Foreman?

A.D: That style, yeah.

J.S: You must have seen all the recent books and documentaries about “The Thrilla in Manila,” with fans still loving that sensational action fight. What do you say to those people who believe Ali would not have been able to come out for that 15th-round against Joe Frazier. Did Ali in fact say to you at the end of the 14th, “cut ’em off?”

A.D: No, that’s not true. People get confused, and they’re getting confused with the Liston fight. My guy told me, “cut the gloves off, I wanna prove there’s dirty work afoot!” I said, no gloves, no fight! But in Manila, no. Ali had such a great 14th-round, why on earth would I stop the fight in the 15th? I’ve seen those documentaries, and I see faces on there of people, who weren’t even there at the fight! George Kimball, a good friend of mine, he’s going to write a piece on the fight, with all the people and writers and everything, who were there. I look forward to that article.

J.S: Joe Frazier still maintains that, as blind as he was himself, Ali was more exhausted and had nothing left to go that last round.

A.D: Ali could’ve gone all night. Where he got his reserves from I don’t know. But he always had those reserves. He was a little bit special. One time I saw him get decked in sparring. He got whacked on the chin, but as soon as his butt hit the canvas he woke up and he got up. I knew then I had a great fighter to work with.

J.S: How would Ali do today, with the huge Klitschko brothers?

A.D: He would’ve stopped both of them. See, Ali looked great against big guys – Cleveland Williams I’ll give you as an example, a huge guy. Another guy, most people haven’t seen the fight, a guy named Duke Sabedong from early in Muhammad’s career (June of 1961, a points win for Ali). He was like 6’6.” Ali’s speed would have overcome both Klitschko brothers. But, hey, they’re the best around today. I think a guy named David Haye is interesting. I don’t think he’d let then hug onto him. Haye is an interesting guy and we need him around. I like the English fighters. One story I’ll tell you – back when Lennox Lewis was still deciding whether or not he was from Canada or Britain (laughs), I was asked to a meeting with Lewis, by Bill Kaplan. I told Lewis to go to the U.K, because the U.K fans are the greatest on earth. I’m kind of proud of that, because Lewis went on to become quite special.

J.S: Angelo, we all know you and millions of other people rate Ali as THE best-ever heavyweight champion. Who do you rate at number-two?

A.D: At number-two? Good one. George Foreman. But then you can’t discount Joe Louis, the finest human being God ever put on this earth. How can you not include Rocky Marciano? You know, you could talk all day. It’s like a trivia question, but everyone has their opinion (laughs).

J.S: Do you ever sit and watch the old classic fights you were involved in?

A.D: I never watch myself! I don’t do that stuff (laughs). But I do watch the old fights, because you never know when it might come in useful – when I might need to show a fighter a certain technique to win a fight. I never miss a fight today. I go to all the local fights and I watch everything on T.V. I never want to miss something and then get asked about it and wind up looking like a dummy!

J.S: Your opinion on the fight we all hope will actually happen will be of great interest. Floyd Mayweather-Manny Pacquiao, who wins?

A.D: I like Mayweather. It’s a difficult fight and a great fight. I hope it happens. Mayweather is actually a nice kid. He was down here recently, and he put his arm around me and said “you’re blowing it son, your blowing it!” He comes off as ugly, but he’s not really like that.

J.S: He’s obviously having some public relations problems right now, along with Ricky Hatton, who I’m sure you read about.

A.D: Oh, Ricky Hatton. That breaks my heart, what these guys are going through. Boxing is the toughest career out there. You’re in a glass house. If your seen walking down the street with a woman, you’re a womaniser. If you go into a bar for a Coke, you’re a drunk. Every young kid that tells me he wants to be a fighter, I ask him, “are you sure?”

J.S: It’s been great talking with you, Angelo. When is the 5th Street Gym’s official opening?

A.D: The official opening, for the press and the VIP‘s, will be September 23rd, the 24th will be for family and friends, the 25th will be open-house for people to train.

J.S: Tom Tsatas said Ali might be coming on the 23rd?

A.D: He is coming. He heard about it and he said he had to be there.

J.S: Wow, that will be some occasion

A.D: It will be. I’m a lucky guy – who goes to work each day and really enjoys what they do? I met my wife through boxing, and we’ve been married now for 58-years. I’m a very lucky human being.

J.S: It’s been a real pleasure for me speaking with you, Angelo. I really appreciate it.

A.D: Oh, I appreciate you calling. Can you mention my face book page – Angelo Dundee, trainer of champions. Tell the fans to take a look.

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By James Slater - I was at The Dome last night, in Doncaster in the north of England, to attend An Evening With ThomasHearns and Roberto Duran. And what a great night it truly was! The sportsman’s dinner, hosted by boxing pundit Steve Bunce, saw both legends looking in great shape, in great spirits and generally enjoying themselves. The demand for photos with the two was huge, but both superstars were happy to oblige the fans.

Later, after dinner and then a (quite long) auction (in which Hearns, Duran as well as Ray Leonard, Mike Tyson and Muhammad Ali memorabilia was sole for the expected high price), Bunce opened the interview section of the evening – the highlight.

Both guys had some interesting things to say, as well as the usual quotes we’ve heard them say many times. For instance, Hearns said that when he was getting ready to fight Duran in 1984, in the various run-ins with Roberto, he was unable to fix the Panamanian great with his “Hitman” stare. “Duran would just make everything out to be funny,” Hearns recalled. “He is a lovely person, and even then he was just having fun. I thought, damn!.”

Duran said he never even considered the considerable height and reach advantages Hearns had over him. “I never even thought about that,” Duran said via his interpretor, Roberto Junior. 

As we know, this proved to be a big mistake on Duran’s part, as he was famously smashed inside two-rounds!

Hearns was asked about his two fights with Sugar Ray Leonard, and Hearns says the famous drawn rematch from 1989 was a fight that Leonard finally admitted to him, eight years later, was a fight he indeed lost. “So why don’t we do it again,” Tommy recalled asking Leonard. “No way, man, you’re too big,” Leonard is said to have replied.

“Every time I see him!” Hearns said in reply to whether or not he still asks Ray to fight the third fight. “I tell him, I’ll get real small (come down in weight) for that fight,” Tommy said, only half-jokingly. “But he says no way!”

And though it is crazy for Hearns to still have ideas of fighting again (he did box as recently as 2006, don’t forget), he does look to be in fantastic physical condition today. Looking a million dollars in his light grey custom-made suit, the 51-year-old can’t be much over the 200-pound mark. Also enjoyable, was the fact that Tommy’s notoriously nasally speech sounded somewhat improved last night. Tommy knows how to work a room, that’s for sure, and his jokes and quick wit enthralled the large crowd.

Duran, too, though he speak little English (he chose to burst into song at times last night, instead of speaking the little English he does know!) is a charming man. Nowhere to be seen was the snarl and menace he was once famous for. Looking less in shape than his former rival, Duran, dressed in slacks, a T-shirt under his jacket and wearing a cap (Duran joked how many English men are bald, and that he was wearing the headwear in tribute!), has recently lost a fair amount of weight nonetheless.

Duran was asked, somewhat surprisingly, about the so called true incident that saw him KO a horse. We’ve all read about this legendary story, but is it true? Well, almost.

Duran, via Roberto Jr, did recall the incident, from when he was still a teenager. Having been drinking at the time, Roberto, for whatever reason, was given the challenge of knocking down a horse. The prize if he could do it was a bottle of whisky, and the young tearaway tried to do it.

“Hit the horse just behind the ear,” Duran was told by his bettor, and he did just that – putting the horse down for a ten-count! So, Hands of Stone didn’t exactly KO a horse, but he did manage to deck one! Make of that claim to fame what you will, animal lovers! Duran explained how he severely damaged the middle finger of his right hand during the act, and he and Tommy then compared right hands!

When Bunce opened it up, allowing the fans to fire questions at the two legends, both had interesting things to say. Hearns, when asked who was the toughest fighter of his career, replied Juan Domingo Roldan. “I though I hit hard, but he really hit me hard,” Tommy said of Roldan. “He really was The Hammer!”

Duran, when asked the same question, replied, “Your own Ken Buchanan. The fight where I won my first world title,” This drew huge cheers from the crowd, but did Roberto mean it, or was he merely being nice to the Scot he famously defeated with an illegal blow to the groin?

The two were, for some reason, asked who they feel is the greatest heavyweight of all-time. Both, without any hesitation, replied Muhammad Ali – again to loud cheers.

When asked the final question of the night, however – who will win if and when Mayweather and Pacquiao get it on – the two men disagreed. Duran likes Pac-Man, Hearns likes “Money.”

“The things my man can do in the ring, I just don’t know if Manny Pacquiao can match that,” Tommy said, favouring the unbeaten Mayweather.

Unfortunately that was all the time the two greats were allowed for questions, although they did then agree to sign yet more photos, pictures etc. All in all a great night, with two great boxing heroes. A mention must go to former WBC welterweight king John H. Stracey, who also mingled with the fans and was happy to talk and sign autographs and pose for pictures. Stracey’s recalled reply to his manager’s offer of making his first title defence against Duran was especially am using. “F**k ***!” John H said simply.

by Geoffrey Ciani - Who are the ten best flyweights of all-time?

This is the eighth in a series of surveys that focus on the top ten boxers from each of the original eight weight classes. In the first survey, we peered into the opinions of long-time boxing fans to make a definitive list of the top ten all time heavyweights. Although this is a very subjective topic that is skewed by personal bias, differences of opinion, and the absence of a universally agreed upon criteria to judge past fighters, we can still establish some degree of consensus. While contemplating my own list of top heavyweight pugilists, I decided gathering the input of others might help display a more accurate portrayal of what a ‘true’ top 10 list should look like. Since then I have had similar surveys involving the light heavyweight, middleweight, welterweight, lightweight, featherweight, and bantamweight divisions.

In this survey, which included many of the same individuals from the previous seven, I polled 16 long-time boxing fans (myself included). My question was simple. I had each person in the survey provide me with a chronological list of who he or she (the one ‘she’ in the survey being my esteemed colleague from On the Ropes Boxing Radio, the lovely Miss Jenna J) considered to be the ten best flyweights in boxing history.

Ties were not allowed, just a straight-forward list from one to ten. I then used a weighted scoring system to assign points to fighters based on where they appeared on each individual’s list. First place votes received 25 points. Second place votes were worth 15 points, third place votes were worth 12, and fourth and fifth place votes were worth 10 and 8 points respectively. After that, the point differential was constant, with sixth place votes getting 5 points, seventh place votes getting 4, eighth getting 3, ninth place 2, and tenth place 1.

Survey Results

After all of the lists were tabulated with the aforementioned scoring system a total of twenty-four different flyweight boxers received mention. Here is a list of the results. (First place votes are indicated in parenthesis).

1. 357 Jimmy Wilde (12)
2. 244 Miguel Canto (4)
3. 151 Pascual Perez
4. 125 Pancho Villa
5. 113 Benny Lynch
6. 97 Fidel LaBarba
7. 51 Frankie Genaro
8. 45 Pongsaklek Wonjongkam
9. 43 Midget Wolgast
10. 25 Newsboy Brown
11. 18 Fighting Harada
12. [tie] 15 Ricardo Lopez
12. [tie] 15 Yuri Arbachakov
12. [tie] 15 Sot Chitalada
15. [tie] 8 Jimmy Barry
15. [tie] 8 Peter Kane
17. 7 Santos Laciar
18. 6 Masao Ohba
19. 5 Pone Kingpetch
20. 4 Jackie Paterson
21. 3 Jung Koo Chang
22. [tie] 2 Hiroyuki Ebihara
22. [tie] 2 Daisuke Naito
24. 1 Memphis Pal Moore

Here is the distribution of votes. 
TOTAL LISTS MADE – NAME – (1st-2nd-3rd-4-5-6-7-8-9-10) 

16 Jimmy Wilde (12 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0)
16 Miguel Canto (4 5 3 2 1 1 0 0 0 0)
16 Pascual Perez (0 1 5 6 0 2 0 2 0 0)
15 Pancho Villa (0 2 3 1 3 2 3 1 0 0)
15 Benny Lynch (0 2 1 2 4 2 1 0 2 1)
12 Fidel LaBarba (0 1 2 2 3 1 2 0 0 1)
12 Frankie Genaro (0 0 0 1 0 4 3 2 1 1)
8 Pongsaklek Wonjongkam (0 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 2 1)
13 Midget Wolgast (0 0 1 0 0 1 2 3 3 3)
6 Newsboy Brown (0 0 0 0 1 1 0 4 0 0)
5 Fighting Harada (0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 1)
1 Ricardo Lopez (0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0)
5 Yuri Arbachakov (0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 3)
3 Sot Chitalada (0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0)
1 Jimmy Barry (0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0)
4 Peter Kane (0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 2)
2 Santos Laciar (0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0)
2 Masao Ohba (0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1)
3 Pone Kingpetch (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 1)
1 Jacky Paterson (0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0)
1 Jung Koo Chang (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0)
1 Hiroyuki Ebihara (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
1 Daisuke Naito (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
1 Memphis Pal Moore (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1)

The Breakdown:

Jimmy Wilde was the clear winner. He finished top three on every list and got the most first place votes (12). Miguel Canto and Pasquel Perez were the only other two fighters to appear on all sixteen lists, with Canto getting the remaining four first place votes. Pancho Villa and Benny Lynch rounded out the top five with each appearing on all but one survey list. Fidel LaBarba and Frankie Genaro topped the bottom half of the top ten. Both fighters appeared on 75% of the lists of those surveyed. Pongsaklek Wonjongkam and Midget Wolgast were separated by just two points, with Wolgast receiving mention by more than 80% of the participants and Wongjongkam appearing on just half the lists. Newsboy Brown took the final top ten slot.

Did Wonjongkam Deserve His Top 10 Spot?

Pongsaklek Wonjongkam became just the third active fighter to finish in the top ten on any list in the series of surveys. The other two fighters who shared this distinction were Bernard Hopkins (who ranked as the #5 middleweight) and Manny Pacquiao (who ranked #9 in the bantamweight survey). Wonjongkam appeared on 50% of the lists (compared to Pacquiao at 26.7% and Hopkins at 86.7%). Interestingly enough, while half of the participants omitted him from their list entirely, almost 20% of those surveyed had him amongst their top five, myself included.

Following the second loss of his career, Wonjongkam won 55 bouts in a row, including seventeen successful defenses of his WBC flyweight title during a reign which spanned more than five years. He has the record for the quickest knockout in flyweight history when he stopped future rival Daisuke Naito in a mere 34 seconds. Interestingly enough, Naito was the man who ultimately ended Wonjongkam’s long run (in all, Wonkongkam leads the head-to-head series 2-1-1). In March of this year, Wonjongkam would regain the WBC flyweight title from the Koki Kameda who had won the throne from his long time rival Naito four months prior.

His list of accomplishments ultimately falls short when compared against someone like Jimmy Wilde, but all in all, I believe Wonjongkam’s position is justified.

How does my list compare?

In the heavyweight and light heavyweight surveys nine of the ten boxers from my list appeared in the official results. In the middleweight, welterweight, lightweight, and featherweight surveys I was down to eight, but I was back up to nine for the bantamweight survey which is where I stood on this one. I had Fighting Harada on my list; the official list had Newsboy Brown there in his stead.

1. Jimmy Wilde
2. Pancho Villa
3. Fidel LaBarba
4. Pascual Perez
5. Pongsaklek Wonjongkam
6. Miguel Canto
7. Frankie Genaro
8. Midget Wolgast
9. Benny Lynch
10. Fighting Harada

More Raw Data:

Here is a quick snap-shot at how the votes broke down amongst the top ten:

1. Jimmy Wilde
Total Lists: 16 (100%)
First Place: 12 (75%)
Top Three: 16 (100%)
Top Five: 16 (100%)
Average Points: 22.3

2. Miguel Canto
Total Lists: 16 (100%)
First Place: 4 (25%)
Top Three: 12 (75%)
Top Five: 15 (93.8%)
Average Points: 15.3

3. Pascual Perez 
Total Lists: 16 (100%)
First Place: 0 (0%)
Top Three: 6 (37.5%)
Top Five: 12 (75%)
Average Points: 9.4

4. Pancho Villa
Total Lists: 15 (93.8%)
First Place: 0 (0%)
Top Three: 5 (31.3%)
Top Five: 9 (56.3%)
Average Points: 7.8

5. Benny Lynch
Total Lists: 15 (93.8%)
First Place: 0 (0%)
Top Three: 3 (18.8%)
Top Five: 9 (56.3%)
Average Points: 7.1

6. Fidel LaBarba
Total Lists: 12 (75%)
First Place: 0 (0%)
Top Three: 3 (18.8%)
Top Five: 8 (50%)
Average Points: 6.1

7. Frankie Genaro
Total Lists: 12 (75%)
First Place: 0 (0%)
Top Three: 0 (0%)
Top Five: 1 (6.3%)
Average Points: 3.2

8. Pongsaklek Wonjongkam
Total Lists: 8 (50%)
First Place: 0 (0%)
Top Three: 1 (6.3%)
Top Five: 3 (18.8%)
Average Points: 2.8

9. Midget Wolgast
Total Lists: 13 (81.3%)
First Place: 0 (0%)
Top Three: 1 (6.3%)
Top Five: 1 (6.3%)
Average Points: 2.7

10. Newboy Brown
Total Lists: 6 (37.5%)
First Place: 0 (0%)
Top Three: 0 (0%)
Top Five: 1 (6.3%)
Average Points: 1.6

Only one surveys left?

Now that I have finished surveys for each of the original eight weight classes, I had initially intended to do just one final survey, and that would be for the top ten all-time pound for pound fighters in the sport. I am, however, considering to do additional surveys for the remaining nine divisions, depending on feedback.